Sometimes hollywood goes a little to the extreme in it's views of political issues. Mikie Moore has just got to be laughed at, this documentary is so one sided that it's laughable. I suppose that you could make a documentary from the other veiw, so whats the point. This is just what the director whants you to believe. This is just a slap in the face of the U.S. military. Just a thought!

All events documented are true. What he says during the documentary are his opinions. So what is your point here? Do you just not think that GW is a bumbling idiot, and this documentary conflicts with these views?

The problem is that a documentary is not supposed to be based on someone's OPINION, but rather based on FACT! Even thought the events depicted may be true, the circumstances surrounding those events are fabricated by Moore. I specific example is that he states something that the 911 commission found to be false and he refused to edit it in the movie. And he knew it was false before the movie even went to production.

Wrong. Every documentary takes facts, and presents them in context of some form of opinion. Some less obviously so than others, but they're all that way.

Moore doesn't even call his films documentaries so as to avoid the entire discussion. So why are we having it? If you don't like Moore's opinions that's fine, but the facts alone raise at least a few uncomfortable questions.

Too bad that there are atleast 56 or more outright LIES in Fahrenheit 911. Similar lies were told in Bowling For Columbine. Opinions are one thing. Lies are another. He's lying through his teeth and labeling it for truth and the masses are lapping it up like it's mothers milk...And so are you guys. Open your eyes.

I dont neccesarily agree with Michael Moore ( I voted for Bush and will more than likely do so again) But I do admire his ability to ensite conversation and debate based entirely on his "opinion based factual movie" The US political theater has been stagnate for entirly too long, If Moore can get people to vote based on something more than just a commercial that says their "prefered"
candidate is less evil than the oppostion then more power to him. It's the controversy that Moor is selling, not the facts. ANYONE can research the same information Moore did. I'm thinking that Moore would want you to double check his movies for factual accuracy. He WANTS you to question him. If you just stand up and say he's wrong because you dont agree with him, then you are more of a joke than he is.

Just MY opinion

Peace

Michael GOEBBELS Moore. Need I say more. For those of you who know history you know what I mean. Democracy can't flourish with propaganda. Neither can a free people remain free with propaganda.

Zone, you really don't get it, do you? Moore isn't laying out facts and encouraging people to think. He's LYING! Making shit up and taking other things OUT OF CONTEXT in order to make them into something they're not.

Here, a direct quote from Michael Moore.

"Where do I begin? This past week has knocked me for a loop. "Fahrenheit 9/11," the #1 movie in the country, the largest grossing documentary ever. My head is spinning. Didn't we just lose our distributor 8 weeks ago? Did Karl Rove really fail to stop this? Is Bush packing?"


So much for him not referring to his movies as documentaries.

There's liars, damn liars and Michael Moore.

Moore lays out facts. Then he takes those facts and often uses them out of context or weighs them out of proportion to draw dubious conclusions that support his views.

But at the heart of it, there are still facts. He had a staff of fulltime independent fact-checkers working on F/911 unlike Bowling for Columbine. Whether you like his conclusions on this one or not is up to you, but the facts are the facts. He may not show all the facts, such as those that might detract from the point he's trying to make, but a partial truth is still the truth. What he them uses those truths for may become a lie, but at the core there are truths.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this flick is gospel truth or anyone *should* see it. It's an opinion piece, as Moore has repeatedly said, despite the occasional slip (he thinks of himself as a documentary film-maker, though one with an agenda).

What I'm saying is that it's no less valid that the lies that are constantly spread from the white house under this administration. Massive WMD stockpiles anyone? Iraq-AlQaeda ties? Nigerian Uranium? Humanitarian crisis? This is a government that lives by dispensing with the truth and presenting a singular view of the world that supports its actions. It's about time someone came along to poke a hole in Bush's aura of untouchability, and imperfect as Moore is, he's what you've got.

A partial truth is not a truth - its a lie, meant to deceive and influence people to come to a conclusion that the liar wants. Since when do the ends justify the means. Liberals and Democrates seem to be agreeing with this as far as Michael Goebbels Moore is concerned, since it supports their position. If you believe that Bush lied, then vote against him. But don't create lies to propagandize people.

I personally don't believe that Bush lied. If he lied then you have to believe that the United Nations, England, France, Germany etc. all lied because they ALL said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. I believe that Bush believed it as did all other countries and the UN. To say what you believe is a fact is not a lie. To be mislead is a different story and that is the real problem.

To state opinion as fact is a lie. There are no white lies. The only difference are the consequences of a lie.

Here, read this. One of several articles exposing Moore for the liar he is.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

It's reactions such as this that are making people go to see the movie top see what all the uproar is about.... and thus feeding him millions of $$ to do it all over again on his next "mission for the truth".
I say this because I am one of those people. I had absolutely no interest in seeing this movie until the media blowup and people's agressive torrent of backlash against Moore.

The quesstion isn't whether anyone should see the movie. Anybody should see any movie they want. The issue is that moviegoers may come out thinking that the movie is a factual historical recapitualation of events. The uproar is about the propaganda being foisted on moviegoers under the guise of a factual documentary when in fact it is not. Moviegoers need to understand that and be able to distinguish fact from propaganda. Successful propaganda is achieved when isolated facts are thrown in to make the whole presentation appear factual when there is in fact another motive involved.


Shame on the entertainment media for not speaking out about this. Shame on liberals and Democrats for not speaking out about this. Shame on Michael GOEBBELS Moore

Shame on Conservatives for not speaking out about Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Novak, and the other lying partisan spinmasters who do nothing *but* try to confuse the facts and help people draw the simplest, most facile (and incidentally wrong) conclusions.

Where was their criticism while Rush was vitriolically agitating the conservative base and pulling voters that way? Show me one conservative who did, and they'll have an ounce of credibility with which to criticise moore. Any who didn't can shut the fuck up.

Fucking sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, doesn't it? Sucks even more when at its heart, Moore's film is full of painful facts that just won't go away no matter how much hue and cry there is about faulty conclusions drawn from them.

People can bash on Moore all they want, but look in the mirror once in a while.

Show me one Conservative or Libertarian who's in the media all the time, who's consistently lied as much as Moore. Moore's films are NOT filled with "painful facts", they're filled with lies and distortions. It's not about the "faulty conclusions", it's about the lies in his films, his propaganda.
Did you even read the listing of fallacies in Fahrenheit 9/11? Or are you afraid of looking in your own mirror?
I'm really curious, but are you an American? Do you live in the US, Zone?

I've read a few, on Moorewatch.com among other places, yes. So far I find them nowhere near as credible as the complaints raised against Bowling for Columbine.

To your painful facts questions:

Is it not a fact that while the entire nation's airspace was shut down, the bin Laden family was allowed special dispensation to leave the country?

Is it not a fact that Bush's family has long-standing ties to the Bin Laden family?

Is it not a fact that Bush and co. pressured CIA investigators to find linkages between Saddam and 9/11?

Is it not a fact that Bush was not just one of a handful of world leaders duped into believing WMDs existed in Iraq, but actively pushed for that interpretation?

Come on, hate moore all you want for his grandstanding and his manipulative tactics, but look at the facts. Bush *is* dirty, whether by active intent, or by willful ignorance. Cart out any other conservative candidate - McCain, Dole, whoever - and I"ll respect them immediately. Bush has proven himself incapable of objective and rational thought, and unworthy of leadership.

That's not to say the democrats are any great wonders. Just that Bush is the worst president in history.

You should read up on stuff first. Clarke approved the Saudi citizens leaving the country.
http://www.hillnews.com/news/052604/Clarke.aspx
Not Bush.

As for the so called "ties", yes, they've done business. Through the Carlyle Group.

Read this: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011112fa_FACT3

Pressured to find evidence, eh? http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4088146/site/newsweek/

Yes, Bush was supportive of that interpretation and so was Tony Blair.
Hell, the UN agreed!
And they're now finding more and more chemical weapons in Iraq. A cache of 20 Sarin gas-variant artillery shells were found.
Also in the time since the war started, almost 2 tonnes of enriched uranium has been removed from Iraq, material that could have easily been used for making a "dirty bomb".
Then there's the fact that starting months before the war and even during the first of it, Saddam was shipping out dismantled weapons systems by the tonne. These weapon systems were shipped to some countries in the Middle East and even some in Europe.
Not to forget that he was in talks with North Korea about purchasing a ballistic missile system.
Whether or not you wish to believe this, Saddam was a vicious tyrant that killed hundreds of thousands of his own people in the worst ways imaginable and he was a powderkeg waiting to explode. He attacked Kuwait unprovoked once before. Are you naive enough to think he wouldn't do it again, when he built up enough military strength?

Bush dirty? No more than any other president. Clinton screwed the pooch with Somalia. Don't get me started on Nixon. Or Lyndon B. Johnson. Or even the new candidate like John Kerry.
I'm not a fan of Bush, but he did what Bush Senior should have done in the first Gulf War. He finished off Saddam.

Well, guess we have issues on both sides. But the question is are lies to be tolerated and accepted as fact when it fits our ideology or is a lie a lie no matter what.

First of all, the Saudis did NOT leave the US while its airspace was shut down. This is a flagrant lie and should stop now. I believe they left 3 days after air traffic was restored in the US. Each of them were interrogated by the FBI before leaving. This was documented in the 9-11 Commission report. So lets end this fabrication.

Second, the Reuters article about defense spending versus spending on education is misleading because it does not account for spending on education by local authorities (State and towns)..Local authorities do not spend on defense only the federal government spends on defense. Even State national guards are funded by the federal government not state governments. So based on this if the figures quoted by Reuters are correct education spending is at least twice that noted in the Reuters article. Limbaugh's statement referred to total spending not just federal spending. So someone should tell Reuters reporters that when they report on the US they should know the system and get their facts straight. Limbaugh is not wrong by degree (ie maybe not twice maybe 2.2 or 1.8 times).

Third- Who cares what is said by commentators about other commentators (O'Reilly versus Moyers) or broadcasting networks (FOX versus PBS)!!!

Fourth- the media is quick to point out fallicies in and misrepresentations by 'conservative ' columnists. To be fair the same liberal media (NY Times) has pointed out the lies in Michael Goebbels Moore's film, but for some reason, liberals don't want to admit to them. So who is not facing reality.

In terms of Drudge etc - these people are known to be ideologues and therefore much of what they say is discounted by the American public. They are the radio and TV version of the National Enquirer. They have virtually no credibility other than their entertainment value. So lets not equate these people making purely political statements with a film that is purporting to present a factual recount of events and has been discredited by the mainline 'conservative' and 'liberal' news media.

Just for the record, I don't care for either Limbaugh or Coulter. They're both idiots.
You served in Vietnam, Manx? Thank you. Not enough people are willing to fight for their country.

But chew on these for a bit.







"I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease. ... He is an absolutely reprehensible person."
--USA Today Columnist Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas

"If there is...justice, he'll get AIDS, or one of his grandchildren will get it."
--National Public Radio's (NPR) Nina Totenberg on Sen. Jesse Helms

"It may take the destruction of Western Civilization to allow the rest of the world to really emerge as a free and brotherly society."
--Newly elected president of that hot-bed of collectivist agitation, The World Council of Churches, Andrew Young

"In South Africa we'd call it apartheid. In Nazi Germany we'd call it Fascism. Here [in the U.S.] we call it conservatism. These people are attacking the poor."
--"Reverend" Jesse Jackson [who wears $3000 suits -- and spends hundreds of thousand of $ on his mistress as hush money for keeping quiet about the bastard he fathered -- while bemoaning the fate of the poor & preaching"Christian" morality"

"Fundamental, Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their religious beliefs because we, the state, are preparing them for the year 2000, when America will be part of a one-world global society and their children will not fit in."
--Former Democratic Congressman Peter Hoagland......does this sound familiar?? Communism anyone???? Suddenly the state owns your children??

"Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we think they ought to have."
--Former president of CBS News, Richard Salant

"I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."
--Lyndon B. Johnson

"When you hear somebody doing it [criticizing the federal government], you ought to stand up and double up your fist and stick it in the sky and shout them down."
--Bill Clinton in a speech in Billings, Montana, 1 June '95

"We don't give a sh-- about what you have to say."
--Gloria Steinham, as she turned off the microphone when feminist Camille Paglia tried to voice a dissenting opinion

"You're fired, and your pension is forfeit."
--European Court of Justice (sic) to Bernard Connolly who wrote a book exposing European Union lies while acknowledging that what he'd written was true

"Suck my dick, you stupid nigger. Shut the fuck up, and get your black ass out of here, nigger!"
--"Reverend" Jesse Jackson and his gang of thugs to Black conservative J. L. Peterson, when he tried to speak at an L.A. Trade Bureau Forum meeting. (Mr. Peterson is currently suing "Rev." Jackson for -- among other charges -- assault and battery, as he was also physically attacked.)

"I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things."
--Self-described 'unbiased broker of events,' and CBS anchorman, Dan Rather, when asked in an interview: "Do you think Clinton is an honest man?"

"Lenin was an apostle of world peace whose ideas have had a profound influence on the course of contemporary history. ... [and] his ideals ... are in line with the U. N. charter."
--U. N. Secretary General U Thant in a speech given in 1970

"In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it is just as bad not to say it."
--Socialist oceanographer, the late Jacques Cousteau

"If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees."
-- President Bill Clinton, August 12, 1993

"And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it."
-- Bill Clinton on MTV's "Enough is Enough", 4/19/1994

"You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
-- Bill Clinton (May 29, 1993)

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
-- William J. Clinton, USA Today, March 11, 1993

"We must be able to arrest people before they commit crimes. By registering guns and knowing who has them we can do that. If they have guns they are pretty likely to commit a crime."
-- Vermont State Senator Mary Ann Carlson

"I am one who believes that as a first step, the United States should move expeditiously to disarm the civilian population, other than police and security officers, of all handguns, pistols, and revolvers...No one should have the right to anonymous ownership or use of a gun."
-- Professor Dean Morris, Director of Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, stated to the U.S. Congress

"We're bending the law as far as we can to ban an entirely new class of guns."
-- Rahm Emmanuel, senior advisor to Bill Clinton

"All military type firearms are to be handed in immediately ... The SS, SA and Stahlhelm give every respectable German man the opportunity of campaigning with them. Therefore anyone who does not belong to one of the above named organizations and who unjustifiably nevertheless keeps his weapon ... must be regarded as an enemy of the national government."
-- SA Oberfuhrer of Bad Tolz, March, 1933.

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
-- Heinrich Himmler

"Stroke of the pen, law of the land... kinda cool"
-- Clinton Presidential Aide Paul Begala referring to Executive Orders, July 1998

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them. "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in," I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."
-- U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D/CA) speaking of her authorship of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban on "60 Minutes" 2/5/95

"We must get rid of all the guns."
-- Sarah Brady speaking on behalf of HCI with Sheriff Jay Printz & others on "The Phil Donahue Show" September 1994

"Our main agenda is to have ALL guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
-- HCI President Sarah Brady to Senator Howard Metzenbaum, The National Educator, January 1994, p.3

"I don't care about crime, I just want to get the guns."
-- Senator Howard Metzenbaum, 1994

"We're going to hammer guns on the anvil of relentless legislative strategy! We're going to beat guns into submission!"
-- U.S. Representative Charles Schumer (D/NY) on NBC 12/8/93

"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal."
-- U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, December 1993

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."
--Nikita Khrushchev to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party 2/25/56

"Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position."
-- Mario Palmieri in The Philosophy of Fascism 1936

"There is the great, silent, continuous struggle: the struggle between the State and the Individual; between the State which demands and the individual who attempts to evade such demands. Because the individual, left to himself, unless he be a saint or hero, always refuses to pay taxes, obey laws, or go to war."
-- Benito Mussolini

"I cannot save every undercapitalized business in America."
-- Hillary Clinton, when questioned about the impact health care mandates would have on small businesses, quoted in Fayetteville (GA)

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
-- Norman Thomas, six-time Socialist Party presidential candidate and one of the founders of the ACLU.

"Among the elementary measures the American government will adopt to further the cultural revolution are the following: the schools, colleges, and universities will be coordinated and grouped under a National Department of Education and its state and local branches. The studies will be revolutionized, being cleansed of religious, patriotic, and other features of bourgeois ideology."
--William Z. Foster, National Chairman of the United States Communist Party, in his book "Toward a Soviet America".

"The children who know how to think for themselves, spoil the harmony of the collective society that is coming, where everyone (would be) interdependent."
-- John Dewey, pioneer of American modern education system

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is mentally ill because he comes to school with certain allegiances to our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It is up to you as teachers to make all of these sick children well -- by creating the international child of the future."
-- Dr. Chester M. Pierce, Professor of Education at Harvard, addressing the Association for Childhood Education International in April,1972

"Schools will become clinics whose purpose is to provide individualized, psycho-social treatment for the student, and teachers must become psycho-social therapists. This will include biochemical and psychological mediation of learning, as drugs are introduced experimentally to improve in the learner such qualities as personality, concentration, and memory."
--National Education Association report entitled "Education for the '70's." (1979)

"The battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom...between the rotting corpse of Christianity...and the new faith of humanism. Humanism will emerge triumphant."
-- John Dunphy, January/February, 1983, issue of "The Humanist"

"It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man."
-- Adolph Hitler, 1933

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."
-- Hillary Clinton, 1993

"In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn't such a great idea after all."
--Strobe Talbot, President Clinton's Deputy Secretary of State, as quoted in Time, July 20th, 1992.

We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
--David Rockefeller, Baden-Baden, Germany 1991

POWERFUL, Voidrunner, POWERFUL