full story:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....C1-ArticlePage1

When Muslims in America who are citizens start speaking out against the dangers posed by their coreligionists in other countries who denounce America and say Death to America then Americans will look at them differently. Until then their silence speaks volumes as to where their loyalties lie. To date they have not demonstrated any loyalty to the US.

We have the same problem in europe, and we have like 400.000 muslims in Denmark alone... Total population 6 millon...

Muslims don't speak out against it, cause they know the facts better than most normal ppl... And because they face exclusion from their society if they speak up...

That says alot about Muslims and where their loyalties lie.

What is it with you americans and picking sides? When you require everyone to pick which side they are on, where their loyalties lie, you are bound to provoke conflict...

Is it not better to not choose a side, thus also not participating in the terror groups or the "witch hunt"? When you force people to pick their side, you are asking for hostility, and eventually, war...

World War !! demonstrated that not picking a side didnot make you immune from attack. History is a great teacher. There is no such thing as neutrality.

In peace, there is nothing BUT neutrality...

You americans should be careful with the "you're either with us, or against us" attitude, cause more and more people, when faced with that dilemma, would choose to be against you... You are surely the strongest single military power, but play any strategy game, and it will teach you that a whole bunch of small opponents can take down the main power with ease...

Not if the maximum use of maximum power is implemented. A game is one thing, a determined leader is another./ I don't care about the rest of the workd. There are many American who feel as I do. Not yet big enough majority, but it will as Europe becomes more anti-American and if another attack on the US succeeds. The new congress won't change this. In fact they are already backtracking.

And for every one of you, there are 10 who feel like me, or worse... You figure the odds out

Personally, I feel diplomacy - which is promoting neutrality, co-operation and GRAY AREA on topics instead of you vs us - is a lot better way than saying we rule, you follow. If you do not care about others, they sure are not going to care so much about your problems. Personally I was totally offended by US saying Finland is terrorist state because we did not say "attack by all means" and instead said that it should first be investigated and so on. Promoting PEACE instead of WAR that is.
I almost agree with the research that showed Osama being most fearest "evil" person on the world. Only that in my opinion the second and first should have been reversed - Bush is the world's worst person instead of only being second. other than that, I agree with it. The obvious reason is TOTAL disregard of others and the massive firepower he controls.
If you think more about it, about all problems would be solved if people only would think of themselves on the other side's position, thinking of others more than themselves. If Osama would have been thinking more of what he will cause to others (not only the immediate victims but also the side-effects, for example heavily troubled air traffic and so on), I think he wouldn't really have gone that far. If Bush would have stopped and thought about the situation he would have not done everything he has (mainly attacking other countries without real reason - greed for oil doesn't count!). And before there is someone complaining, I do NOT mean that he shouldn't have investigated the matter THOROUGHLY, I mean he SHOULD HAVE FOLLOWED ESTABLISHED PROCEDURES instead of starting the war on terror (and by doing so, causing a lot of distress against themselves too! Just using myself as an example, I actually do not anymore feel so bad about the attack. Sure, for the people sufferinng, but as a nation.. it feels almost deserved).

Okay that was some hard text and was not intended as flamebait but as to promote some discussion about the topics mentioned. Moreover, just so you know, Osama should be punished. The same goes for Bush too thought, for war-crimes and for promoting the war and well you get the point

You lose. Europeans don't fight, they surrender - based on past performance.

Based on the fact that americans are from Europe..
and basing on history, as you seem to like, I would like to point out the disregard of others: supporing slavery for long time, treatment of native americans, vietnam... I suppose you get the point ?

And did Finland surrender for enemy more than ten times stronger ? no - and we held our own! Hitler is not a person who is approciated but I would like to point out that even HE respected Finnish military. Should say enough of being on the losing side ?
Going back to neutrality.. I give you an example: Sweden during WW2. They were able to maintain that throughout the war, and as it so happens, they were NOT conquered, they did NOT need to surrender. And on many nations that had to surrender on the verge of destruction, the resistance lived on..

EDIT: Just as a question.. what kind of countries you would like ALL countries to be ? Thinking of others or just themselves ? War-promoting countries or Peace-promoting countries ?

Would any of these supposed neutral countries remain neutral after all their neighbors had been conquered? I doubt it.

As for slavery, the US never supported slavery, but it did tolerate it. In fact more American died eliminating slavery in our civil war. Even the founders of the US Constitution debated about slavery. Learn your history.

Not all Americans are from Europe. Those that are came for a reason. Not because Europe was so good.

I want countries to respect their citizens, impose and guarantee human rights and allow liberties such a freedom of speech to the extent the US does, freedom of religion to the extent the US does, guarantee a Bill of Rights to the extent the US does. No country on earth, including Finland, guarantees these rights and freedoms to the extent the US does.

The concern for native americans you speak about was really conducted and promulgated by the Europeans that came to this country and moved West. But I guess Findland and other European countries have treated there NATIVES well also, except who were the natives of Europe - Europeans.

The disregard for others you talk about seems a little disingenuous because no country has to accept the concerns of other countries in the implementation of its foreign policy. If other countries don't agree or view it as a threat they can respond appropriately and face the consequences. Europe should have some regard for the opinions of Americans. bitch Bitch BITCH that's all they do. But recent events have shown what Europeans have done and continue to do to minorities in their countries, things which would not be allowed in the US.

In fact the one country in the world that most people want to emigrate to is the US. No other country has the immigration and waiting lines at their embassies of people wanting to get visa to emigrate to the US - this one fact is indisputable.

Most of Swedens neighbours were conquered... For another example, look at Thailand (Land Of The Free), as all countries around them were colonized, they remained neutral and has to this day never been conquered, despite having much stonger countries surrounding them (Japan, Malaysia etc.)

Maybe you should learn some history of the world, not just the US



Debated and decided to allow it?




In denmark, you can say "Cock and Balls" on TV, and you can show it too...

Despite half the world being in a rage about it, Denmark stood up to everyone, when they wanted us to not show pictures of Mohammed the Prophet in the newspapers...

2 journalists were just judged innocent, after PE (Police Intelligence) dragged them to court, for printing confidential information...

How's that for your freedom of speach? Could this have happened in the great US?

As a matter of fact, the reason Europeans disagree with the actions of the American, and our own, governments IS the completely free and independent press. The reason Americans can't see it, is because the US is using more propaganda than the Nazis did before WW II at the moment...

Also,

The US is leading the attempt to police the internet,
the US is telling everyone what to do, and what not to do,
the US has gone to war with communist countries, because they didn't agree with communism,
The US has lots of things you "Won't see on TV!"... Why? Because of censur.

Also, talking about human rights for all citizens, where was it when all the Japanese where trown in camps after Pearl Harbour? Where was it when blacks were forced to sit in the back of the bus? Couldn't eat in "White Only" restaurants...

Get the picture?



We are where we belong, where we have always been, and where we have a birthright to our land...




When the world is turning hostile, and people are scared, the weak will flee to the most powerfull part to hide... The strong and brave stay where they are, and stand up for themselves... Not neccesarily through military power, but perhaps by the power of freedom? The power that comes from the will to be free, truly free, and never let anyone scare them into taking the wrong side...

Talking about human rights...

if US never supported it, then why it was there in the first place.. ? Why was it necessary to have a civil war ? If I recall my history lessons, America had a civil war because of part wanting to keep the slavery, not because it just conquered some land from the people supporting it.. well technically that might be said that way too I guess.



Yes, because they wanted the gold from the native people, they were interested in the offer of receiving free land .. basically greed ? Or because of them having to flee because there were convicted in EU for criminal actions ?



.. to the extent the US does ? so it is bad if there are more freedoms than you have ? I wouldnt go to say that.. And if you say "to the extent" then yes, only US does that way, but for me it feels the nordic (and EU) press have a lot of more liberties, as do the people. Are your companies allowed to see where the emails are directed towards ? Think so - but it is NOT possible here. That just as an example, fully knowing that I'm no expert in the laws there nor the laws here, and with adding my opinion of the EU citizens having more liberties than US ones.



which minorities you are referring to, if I may ask ? I admit that some people have problems tolerating foreigners even here in Finland. But it is still safe for everyone to walk around the city during the night, at least here in Tampere.. that is true for whole Finland as well I think. We don't really have to worry that much about the crimes here - there are some, sure, but it is really low amount.
So you are saying everyone should bend to US will if I summarize yourself ? It does seem a bit weird that we should have regards to US but yet no country should have regards to others ? In my view, foreign policy is all about regards to other countries by the defination of its meaning..

Oh and it is good to have this conversation going, so far I feel it doesn't belong to Bitching section as we have been keeping the talk quite civilized. Let's try to keep it that way right ?
Knowing I'm attacking the ways you have said things, I have to say my apologies for you artzelda, it's not personal

WOW, brainwashing must in vogue and there are susceptible people.

The US government does not require identification of individuals by race, nationality, religion or ethnicity, regardless of what people think. This is prohibited by the US constitution and we are a nation of laws - not men. Quote what you like, the facts are different. Muslim headdresses are prohibited in France and other countries. Not in the US - prohibited by the US consitution.

Past discrimination and injustices in the US have been removed and eliminated by the same government and people you condem - over 45 years ago. Before some of you were even born. Wow,to use this as an example is indicative of a total lack of knowledge and bigotry. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

The issue of neutrality is really based on the supposition that there is an equal balance of opposing forces that will allow neutral? nations to remain neutral?. If this balance did not occur the neutrality of these nations would not be respected. When was the neutrality of the slavic countries respected?? Sorry - Thailand was once colonized by a European country.

Japan was not because it had no resources to provide. That's why Japan invaded China, Korea, and the South Pacific Islands. Know your history. Countries are invaded and colonized because they have something another country wants. Sweden was a colonizer as was Norway. In fact every major European country was a colonizer. The US has never colonized another country. Puerto Rico has special status and periodically the people there vote on what their status should be and they have continually voted to retain the present status. The US gave the Philipines its sovereignty after the Spanish American war. What other European volutarily relinquished territory and even aided financially???

Freedom of speech - in what other country can you burn the flag and get away with it. When Americans see people in other countries burn the flag they laugh and say they should come here and do it. Here it is legal.

The US as other countries has interests and has the right not to do as others ask. Other countries have the right to do the same. But the US has the right to retaliate if its interests are in danger. Let the most powerful win. Bottom line MIGHT DOES MAKE RIGHT.

As for the US being on the wrong side - the wrong side is any side you don't agree with. Wow what a statement. This implies no disagreement is allowed. THat's what I call freedom of speech.

Its not the weak who flee - its the disposses and oppressed that flee. Being weak is not the reason people left Europe. They came and continue to come to the US for a better life - and in most cases they get it. Hell - the governor of the largest state in the US is a prime example. Bodybuilder to governor. Our colleges are filled with foreign students. Look at the number of new businesses created in the US by foreigners inthe past 10 years - Google, Yahoo, Intel, etc. And the US is controlling the internet - Give me a break. We don't censor. China censors. Iran censors as do other countries.

Deepone - no need to apologize. No offense taken